Running for Water (Because Shutoffs Are Immoral)

Quinn: [00:00:00] Chronically parched is not something anyone in this country or anywhere should ever have to feel, but here we are. So how are towns and states making clean water more affordable, reliable, and less controversial? 'cause remember, it's fucking water. Look, you might feel like you're giving it all you got but when you look around things are a little dark out there.

So you, our listeners and readers and viewers and users, whatever, across the world, want and demand more examples of fight and progress you can see and touch and feel, taste, and in these conversations, in this special series, in our partnership with our best friends that Run For Something, we're gonna do that.

We're giving you exactly what you asked for. Each of these episodes features two guests both sourced from the Run For Something pipeline and graduating classes. So the next real generation [00:01:00] of US leaders all across the country. First, I'll introduce one young elected official at the state or local level who has actually made real measurable progress on an issue facing more Americans than ever before, something that you'll notice.

And then in the same episode after that, I'll introduce a bright-eyed candidate who's currently running for a state legislature for mayor, for city council, or for school board, who is similarly hellbent on attacking the same issue in their own hometown or their state. And for all you know, one of these could be in yours or near yours, or just have lessons that apply to yours.

So you and I are gonna find out together at the same time live what they're working on and why, where they've actually made measurable progress, where they've struggled 'cause that matters, and how they're exact tactics and strategies can be adopted and transferred to other schools and school districts, towns, cities, and states across the country.

I do [00:02:00] have a request though. If these conversations inspire you in any way, please do two things today. 'cause remember, these folks are only part of the thing. You've gotta do your part. Number one, find out what office you or some actual young person you love and respect can run for at run for what dot net. You would be surprised at how many amazing offices go uncontested in this country. Number two, please find and support incredible candidates endorsed by run for something and other amazing organizations we love at what can I do dot Earth. And last, there is a third thing. Please share these.

Sure, you can give us a five star review if you'd like, but also share these with somebody who might be into, for example, water. Because if you need this and I need this many more people need these conversations. So first off, today, a little context for our topic, drinking water. You think it wouldn't be complicated or controversial, but remember folks, bad guys are real.

[00:03:00] So there is a lot of progress being made even in the age of climate change and floods and all that. And the folks I've got on the show today are doing it in their districts or they're running to, and they also have lessons for yours. Both of our folks today are from Michigan, no stranger to water issues.

Introducing our incumbent, State Rep Laurie Pohutsky is a Michigan born millennial microbiologist serving her fourth term in the Michigan House of Representatives where she serves on the oversight committee and is the Chair of the Progressive Women's Coalition. Laurie’s mom was a nurse and her dad was a teamster, and that's basically all I need to know, but I'll give you some more detail.

Laurie sponsored legislation that became Michigan's Clean Energy and Jobs Act of 2023. She's the co-sponsor of legislation to make polluters pay, which is always great, and to amend Michigan's Natural Resources and Environmental Protection Act, which focuses on environmental cleanup standards and procedures, which would be stellar since, as you know, the [00:04:00] EPA has, you know, basically been abolished.

Anyways, more good news. Let's talk to our candidate. Denzel McCampbell is a fine, young community advocate and native Detroiter, living and running for Detroit City Council District seven. Denzel was born and raised in the east side and is a graduate of Michigan State University. He is dedicated to public service, to fighting day in and day out to increase access to democracy and representation for marginalized groups. He believes the Detroit city government of which he would like to be part again should be a responsive government that uses its resources to ensure that every neighborhood is well resourced and that every resident is able to have the fundamentals.

Adequate and truly affordable housing, public transportation, and access to water and opportunities and things like that to improve their lives and have their basic needs met. Denzel has deep knowledge and experience in organizing and advocating and working on all levels of government to affect change for his community.

So [00:05:00] there we go. Two amazing humans fighting for water. And fighting for everything else. Let's find out what it means for their hometowns, for Michigan, and for yours.

Laurie Pothutsky, welcome to the show. Thank you for joining us today, on like our seventh version of audio visual equipment. It's working. We got it. Laurie, correct me if I'm wrong, you were in your fourth term of Michigan House of Representatives. That's exciting. That's very exciting. Nothing has happened in those four terms. It's been totally boring out there. Could you tell us a little bit about your district?

Laurie Pohutsky: Yeah, absolutely. So currently my district is a portion of northwest Detroit, north Redford Township, which is a suburb, even just a little further outside, I have Northeast [00:06:00] Livonia. So the district itself stretches from a pretty urban area to a more suburban area. When I first ran and first got appointed with Run for Something, I was running in an extremely gerrymandered district. It was just the city of Livonia minus one square mile.

Quinn: Sure. Why not?

Laurie Pohutsky: And it had been Republican held for quite some time. That seat I ended up flipping it with a whole lot of help. We only flipped it by 227 votes, So, you know, when folks talk about, you know, I feel like I'm not making an impact, I wouldn't be here talking to you if people didn't make an impact. 'cause when you look at those numbers like every single piece of outreach that someone did in their spare time, make that possible.

Quinn: Yeah, a hundred percent. We were just handing out, we've a few gated communities here that are very obnoxious about door knocking and things like that. A gentleman running for school board who's working with Run for Something, good guy. And this one community just won't let him in. And so we found [00:07:00] some good neighbor friends that are in there and just gave him a bunch of stuff and said, just incognito, middle of the night.

Go drop these on doorsteps. 'cause like you said, 227 votes. Everyone counts. I mean, Virginia, what was that? I was still in Los Angeles I think, I feel like it was like six, seven years ago, they like took, pulled a name out of a hat or some shit because there was like one vote.

Laurie Pohutsky: Yes.

Quinn: Everything is working exactly as it's supposed to, Laurie. Alright, so, like I mentioned to you the other voic, our listeners will hear from today is Denzel McCampbell, who's running for Detroit City Council. Fabulous gentleman. Tell me, you are a I believe there was a description online. Is that the millennial microbiologist? Is that right? That's a great handle. Why did you run for office?

Laurie Pohutsky: I got pissed off. There's a bit of a more articulate backstory there, but I was really just pissed off. Coming outta the 2016 election cycle, I am a queer woman who believes I should have bodily autonomy, and I was a scientist and all of those things were kind of coming under attack.

[00:08:00] I, like a lot of people, I think started paying more attention to more local levels of politics and government, namely the state legislature and I saw that there were a lot of policies coming out of Lansing that had a basis in science, be that environmental healthcare related. But no one really there to advocate for those scientific perspectives because there were no scientists.

So I, with all of the hubris I could muster, I was like, well, I'm just gonna run and, you know, we'll see what happens. And I really didn't think that I was going to win in all honesty. I thought I might move the needle a little bit. But I ended up winning and I got on some really cool, important committees from my perspective in my first term. And also COVID ended up hitting in my first term. So I think that perspective ended up being a little bit more useful than I originally planned on.

Quinn: I've got a lot of questions, but mostly it really speaks to representation, doesn't it? You know, it's like there were no scientists. Great. It's just [00:09:00] like how we don't have any teachers. I think we've got like one nurse in the US House of Representatives, yeah, it matters. So thank you for doing that. It's very helpful. So talk to me about how you got hooked up with our good friends at Run for Something, and then we're gonna get into water here.

Laurie Pohutsky: You know, I was looking for all of the help I could get. I had no experience running for any type of office. So I was applying for all of the training I could, all of the, you know, orgs that were willing to help young progressive candidates get their foot in the door and get some education going and get some resources.

And I was also in a really competitive primary, my opponent was also endorsed by Run for Something and he and I get along fantastically so there's no bad blood there or anything. But what I really appreciated was, you know, it was a really competitive primary, so a lot of people that got involved were like, oh it's one or the other, it cannot be both.

And that's not what Run For Something did. They were like, look, we want representation [00:10:00] that both of you can bring. So let's try and do everything we can to support both of you in whatever you need. 'cause you probably have different needs right now. And they were very interested in my story and why I wanted to run and represent people and the perspective I could bring.

And it was just, it was immensely helpful. There were so many questions that I, you know, felt dumb asking, but got immediate help with and, obviously, you know, fundraising support, connections with better ways to recruit like people power too. It was just so, so helpful.

Quinn: It's interesting 'cause like you said I love the idea that they and you and your opponent were good sports about the whole thing. 'cause it's like we gotta do all the things. So like, why are we picking and choosing now? Which I understand that's obviously what a primary is for. We don't shy away from how the political sausage is made here. But it's gotta be something, you know, we've gotta do what we can to keep pushing and keep pushing. And that's what I think. Amanda Litman and I are on the same page most of the time, which is like rage texting about our idealism, but at the same time, like we'll take every [00:11:00] step we can get along the way and that includes just getting more and more folks like yourself in there.

So that's really great. So you came back to this idea of there's a lot of science-based stuff coming out of the state legislature, which, you know, as I'm sure you're aware, like you said you became more aware of that there is a state legislature and how they operate. And a lot of folks in the past 10 years have had that same awakening for a variety of reasons.

You know, all the trigger laws that kicked in the minute Roe v. Wade was turned down. And people realize some of these laws have been under the books for a hundred years and they go, who made those? And you go, well, congrats, it's your state legislature. And if you're a person who's been yelling at people to get involved on the state and local level for a long time you don't wanna say I told you so, but you're also like, welcome, let's do this. And now obviously more than ever that is instrumental 'cause it's kind of all we've gotten a lot of ways. So really helpful that you started before that. But you said there's a lot of science-based stuff coming out and it's interesting, we kinda, same time early COVID like came up with this fun little tagline called Science for People [00:12:00] who give a Shit and there's two things there. One for better or worse, and I feel like I say this a lot because of COVID and climate and all these different things and poverty and our housing crisis, there's a lot more people that give a shit fortunately and unfortunately than ever before. So we try to reach 'em, but at the same time, science is everything at this point, right? I mean, it's in everything. You know, and everyone became an amateur scientist in the past five years. Again, for better or worse, but we're understanding that there's like fundamental pieces and building blocks of all these policies we choose or don't choose that can affect in a systemic way the science of our biology and our sociology and our public health and our climate and ecosystems and our water, obviously. So I don't think I have to explain to people why we decided to talk to two folks from Michigan about water, obviously on the international scene. You came right into that. It's been like 10 years, I think since the Flint stuff [00:13:00] became news, at least to the rest of the world. When you talk to folks around the state and you talked a little bit about your district group before I know you're working on the pipes, you know, all these different pieces.

There's the bottled water fiasco. It's been going on forever. How do people feel about it now? Do they feel like there's been progress made? Is there something that they can touch and feel that at least, again, this is a big complicated issue that Michigan's going in the right direction?

Laurie Pohutsky: I think in some ways, yeah, some ways, no. There are so many reasons that what happened happened, racism, you know, systemic issues. But even if we just want to look at water infrastructure and isolate that piece, we have done a tremendous amount in Michigan, in going in and replacing our water infrastructure before it becomes a problem. And I think a lot of people see that one because we're literally tearing up in front of their yards, it's an ever present fear for people now, I think. But it's also a little hard to [00:14:00] consistently get people to know about and recognize and be invested in because it's sort of one of those out of sight, out of mind things. People don't necessarily look at that as critical infrastructure in a way that they probably should. I think that there are also other issues related to water that we've made some headway on, but frankly, not nearly as much as we should. And I think those are also the issues that tend to get more coverage and something sort of mundane and kind of deeply unsexy as water infrastructure.

When you look at things like PFAS and microplastics, there's a ton of work that we need to be doing there. And there is headway, but not nearly as much as there could be, and frankly, as I think most people would want and expect.

Quinn: Yeah, that's fair. I mean, again I really love infrastructure and I've had a couple guests on talking about it. I'll send you a couple [00:15:00] books that are great and one is like a kid's graphic novel and it's great. It's like look at what's around you, even if you can't see it, right? Even if you never go to the part of town where the treatment plants are, right.

Whatever it might be, it's every, it's the idea of like when you hit that switch on your light, whatever it is, it really helps to spend a day considering how that works, not just so you understand it, but for the gratitude of how many different people and how many different pieces and how many different systems erect to to make it so your light turns on to make sure that water comes outta your faucet. And to understand who the bastards are making the decisions when they cut it off, right?

Or to not replace the pipe, someone is deciding to keep you sick, basically. What lessons in all the billions you guys are spending to, like you said, rip up these pipes and put in new ones, which again is really touch and feel. This is big work and you are not unique in America to the respect that you have to replace aging infrastructure. What lessons, I guess, have been learned? 'cause you are four terms in, are there things you would change about these bills or [00:16:00] updates or amendments going forward as this work continues that might be transferrable to other places?

Laurie Pohutsky: The longer you wait to address something, the more expensive and harder it gets to do. You know, Flint was the light bulb moment for everyone. But this is a crisis that could happen to some degree in any community here in Michigan, because we all have these aging pipes and, you know, there are funds available. At least there was through, you know, the federal government and state assistance, but a community has to be below a certain threshold and meet a certain level of need in order to access and draw down those funds to replace their infrastructure in that way. And a lot of communities don't, but one, they definitely still need to replace that infrastructure.

And two, they don't actually have the funds available to do it solo. So we need to just get better holistically, particularly when it comes to infrastructure in looking prospectively [00:17:00] and trying to address problems as we can. Rather than waiting until it's literally a crisis and we have action levels popping up all across the state. That revenue has to be from somewhere eventually, and politicians hate raising revenue. This is what happens when you don't, you know, we have virtually I should say we have no plan, but there are a lot of communities without resources that desperately need assistance in raising this infrastructure.

And that's something that we could have been looking at a long time ago, but certainly since Flint.

Quinn: Totally. Well, if we're talking about and again, like you said, this is endemic everywhere. Part of it's federalism to bring the national government into it for a minute because for huge infrastructure projects, traditionally a lot of that money will come from there in some ways. Even it takes forever to be distributed and every state and then locality treats it differently, a whole thing.

Right? We've seen that with every bill, but [00:18:00] again, if we're looking at, assume we're not getting any money from the feds, have you seen success? Are there learned lessons from local and state governments actually starting to work together on some of these things to find a common way? 'cause like you said, local governments can't afford to do this shit. Like whether we're talking roads or pipes or whatever.

Laurie Pohutsky: Yeah, you know, I mean, I think that, like you said, part of it is a structural issue just because of the way that we have historically funded and relied on the federal government for that. But I will say that. You know, trying to connect our local governments to the statewide departments that are doing this work.

We have made it a priority in previous budget cycles to set aside funds to try and help communities that are not going to qualify for federal funds to make sure that they're not left hanging because they simply can't do it without some assistance. Right. So yes, there absolutely have been lessons, but we've had to act faster now than we would have if we had just been approaching it this way [00:19:00] since, you know, probably before I got there.

Quinn: But that's a tale as old as time for everywhere. You know, Michigan isn't, well, most people who don't understand geography, it's not on the east or west coast. So you wouldn't think oh, storms, but like you guys are dealing with real increased rains and flooding and erosion in a real way. 'cause you're on these enormous bodies of water, obviously in a lot of ways. But again that's endemic throughout the country, like whatever you're talking about. And like you said. We didn't start early enough. Now we have to do it. It's gonna cost more, but that doesn't mean we can't do it. Like you do have to do it or it starts to be truly crippled in a lot of ways.

One of my best friends works in a research hospital in Southwest Virginia. And when he got there, he is a real problem solver. And he's gonna murder me for oversimplifying this, but they were basically like, make people stop coming to the emergency room so much. And that is such a complicated problem. But it's also very simple in a lot of ways because so many people come in with heart pain and chest pain and the doctors say, Steve, we've [00:20:00] seen you three times this year. You have to take your heart medication. This is gonna cost you so much money, especially if you took an ambulance. Plugs up the emergency room, right? And we can't show up every day and make you do this, but if you do this, it will be less costly, both fiscally and to your health span, right? To everyone involved. And it's the same thing for everything. You know, that maintenance goes a long way and obviously sometimes you gotta replace the pipes. But that's where we are. And we do have to do that work. And as much as Michigan has been, you know, unfortunately in the spotlight, nowhere else is safer from this. New York City's pipes are a thousand years old. So who are your allies when it comes to water in the state legislature, but also advocacy groups and other groups that are again, advocating or outside groups that are helping to write policy either on the national or the state level for y'all, like where can you turn to for that?

Laurie Pohutsky: There's sort of like a contingency of the environmental legislators, you know, that have kind of just sort of owned these [00:21:00] issues. And, you know, we have term limits here in Michigan, so they've come and gone. But in terms of advocacy organizations, we work a lot with the Sierra Club, the Natural Resources Defense Council. But there's also a lot more like hyper localized groups. So like Moses in Detroit deals a lot with affordability. I have learned so much from them in terms of how this has just really been designed to disenfranchise in my case, Detroiters. But, you know, there are communities all across the state and country like this.

Detroit Action and People's Action. Michigan United has been fantastic. The League of Conservation Voters. They are getting into, historically, obviously always, you know, conservation and environmentally focused, but also they've gotten into affordability areas. They've gotten into like pro-democracy areas.

So like really kind of, highlighting for people how all of these things are linked. But no, it's just, it's been really fantastic to sort of have a [00:22:00] coalition of people statewide and more at a local level to raise awareness and bring other people into the issue too. 'cause you know, you mentioned this earlier, like times are hard.

Everyone is just kind of overwhelmed all of the time, so you cannot possibly, you know, keep an eye on every crucial issue. So sometimes having people raise awareness in communities and sort of be trusted messengers for people is really helpful too. And getting people to understand why it's important.

Quinn: Well, I love that because we ran a poll once. It was something along the lines of have you ever considered running for local office? And we got some incredible responses, but a lot of'em were like, no, I'm terrified. Didn't know there's a local office. No one will like me. No, it seems too hard. I've never been to a city council. All these different things and you're like, you can go to a city council meeting. You know, I mean, you only need to make people like you for a little while you know, all these different things. But I understand the fear of it and the fear of, I can campaign, you know, I think it was Barack Obama was just, you know, [00:23:00] campaigning much easier than actually governing, which is true. But at the same time, there's always people who are already there doing the work that can help you along the way. Like those allies, like you said, like those folks in the legislator that have come and gone you're not gonna have to show up and do the whole thing. There's always folks, and especially again someplace like Michigan, where folks have been on the ground doing it 'cause they have to, you know, and those are the best folks to learn from for sure. What's actually gonna work in this bill? What is just a waste, you know? How do we get Nestle outta here?

Laurie Pohutsky: Well, and to give the history of some of that, again, we have term limits. So institutional knowledge is so, so valuable in this state. And it's not gonna come in most cases from sitting legislators because we've only been there for, you know, a hot minute really when it comes down to it. So having organizers and stakeholder groups that do have that institutional knowledge, because they have been there fighting this battle consistently is so, so critical.

Quinn: So [00:24:00] what does the future look like for how Michigan, again, like so many places you are bailing out the boat. But also trying to plug the hole in a lot of ways, knowing more rains are coming, knowing more erosions coming, things like that. You're fixing the pipes, which at one point like wasn't in the conversation and now it is.

It's along the way. Can you look ahead at all to go what are we gonna need to do next? What's the next thing? That's sort of the intersection of achievable but also something that'll make measurable progress that people can touch and feel.

Laurie Pohutsky: Yeah. You know, I mean, I touched on PFAS and microplastics and I'm on the microplastics package, I think that those are real threats and they're very serious concerns for people, so I'm not trying to disregard those. But also the landscape has fundamentally changed since I started in the legislature in 2019.

People are trying to survive on a day to day basis now. So when you ask me what is the next big issue for me and what is something that I also think is achievable, it's water affordability just plain [00:25:00] and simple. We had a package that was so well vetted and there was virtually no opposition.

And it would be a whole separate podcast episode to talk about how we got to a point where it all fell apart in the end, but suffice to say

Quinn: Interested.

Laurie Pohutsky: Great. Always available and I will make sure that my tech works. But suffice to say I know that, you know, folks are gonna hear from Denzel on this one too.

Denzel's opponent killed that. The margin we had was one person and she stopped showing up and that is a program that would've been transformational for people under the best of circumstances much less now, when the cost of everything is going up, people are losing their food assistance, you know, healthcare is being held hostage and premiums are going to go up on, you know, ACA coverage and everything.

That package would have been a game changer for people in this state, and it is [00:26:00] still so incredibly possible. If we can just get, you know, the actual politics of stuff out of the way, it had bipartisan support. I believe it still does. It's been reintroduced. That is one of my top priorities because it is a good bill package.

Senator Stephanie Chang is leading the way on that and she just did an immense amount of work to get everybody that could have a stake in it with the exception of one, you know, random commissioner somewhere, to be on board with it and still make sure that it did what it needed to do and it was important last term, but it is a thousand times more important right now. So that is one of my top priorities to try and get done.

Quinn: Thank you for sticking with your guns on that. The good and the bad news about the fact that we're fighting for the basics all over again is that it's so easy and often like cathartic to really draw a line in the sand with people about not that this wasn't incredibly important and [00:27:00] aspirational and awesome, but when people are like, oh, in the IRA, yes, we got a green bank and how much money should, and that's all awesome.

I will argue about that all day. It's really exciting. We're all coming from the same place that it should exist. Now, we're like, do you believe that people's water should be shut off? If the answer is yes. You're a bad guy. Like I have no problem, in fact, I'm excited to call you out and be like, oh you think people's water should be shut off? Let's talk about that. How do you think people live? What do you think people need to live?

Laurie Pohutsky: Right.

Quinn: That and like dirty air. And one of the other conversations we've had is school lunches. It's just stuff that makes me again, like kind of in a cathartic way, go haywire.

Laurie Pohutsky: We had a three hour long hearing on that bill package because there were so many people who had their water shut off who wanted to come testify and like, I have had my water shut off. That is a mortifying thing to disclose to a room full of people who probably cannot relate to it. So it was a three hour long hearing because if that many people want to come and [00:28:00] like share in that way to explain why this is important, then we're doing it.

And one of the Republicans, it was my committee at the time, but one of my Republican colleagues on that committee at one point asked them if they had Netflix accounts and if they had considered shutting off their Netflix in order to afford their water. And it was not my like most professional moment, but I wouldn't change a single thing about it because I don't know what he thinks you do. Do you think that people who cannot wash their hands or go get a glass of water or flush their toilet are spending a whole lot of time enjoying Netflix and their house?

Quinn: There's a moment in the very first Avengers movie where someone, I don't remember how they get to that point, but basically the Hulk says, my secret is I'm always angry. And I'm like, yeah, that's where I’m at. And that's okay. I'm gonna ride that as long as necessary. I will burn out into the sun on that because I would've, however you handled that, I would've handled it much more poorly. And what are you gonna do? [00:29:00] It's just incredible. It's incredible. We can talk about bad guys all day, but, yeah, what's next is like we're still fighting for the basic stuff. In fact, we're going backwards on a lot of this stuff. Whatever it is, you know, when they're, again, wastewater surveillance, using it for evil to try to find birth control in the water. And you're just like, okay, that's where we are. Got it.

Masks are off. Not microplastics, though. Perfect. We're keeping it positive here. You guys are doing a lot of tremendous work. It has been like 10 years, which is crazy. I feel like I'm a thousand. But you are doing the work and that's not a not complicated thing. You are replacing the pipes while people try to kidnap your governor, you know, while you are dealing with bad guys who are mad about Netflix.

Laurie Pohutsky: And us actually, fun fact, the people who tried to kidnap her came to the capitol looking for her, couldn't find her, and decided they were going to start assassinating us and live streaming it to lure her out. So, that's just a fun bit of bar trivia to keep in your back pocket.

Quinn: You're the monster that wants people to have water to drink, perfect. Hang your hat on it. Well that is what good [00:30:00] representations all about. And I'm sorry you went through that. It's yeah, all we can do is keep fighting, I guess. Laurie, what's a book you'd recommend to us? We get the Constitution, we get coloring books, we get fantasy, we get amazing nonfiction. It is truly your choice.

Laurie Pohutsky: Lawless by Professor Leah Litman, who is full disclosure, a friend of mine, but she is a law professor. She is just an incredible litigator. She's argued in front of the Supreme Court. She helped with the fight for reproductive rights here in Michigan, for LGBTQ rights here in Michigan. But she really just outlines how what we're seeing with the Supreme Court now is not a new phenomenon.

This has been in the works for a really long time. There are absolutely moments where it's a bummer, but there's also like a tangible call to action and here's what you can do to fix it. And it's just, it's absolutely essential reading for anybody living in America right now.

Quinn: Perfect. Great. [00:31:00] Awesome. We will add it to list. We've got a bunch up on Bookshop which that people love. Is there, last one, a playlist you can't get enough of right now? That's a new one. And I was like, why haven't I been asking this? This is where people go.

Laurie Pohutsky: There's a new Florence in the Machine album that came out today. That is called Everybody Scream, which I feel like is just chef kiss right now.

Quinn: Perfect. I saw her once at the Hollywood Bowl or the Greek, I think, and was just like, I mean, it was 1000 years ago, but it's just I mean, incredible.

Laurie Pohutsky: Yes. Yes. I'm very jealous right now. No, she's fantastic.

Quinn: That's awesome. We'll find the new Florence and the Machine album. I will be blasting down to the streets of Colonial Williamsburg later. Perfect. Well listen, the hardships you went through to appear today are numerous, and on no notice, so I really appreciate it.

Laurie Pohutsky: Thank you for everything you're doing.

Quinn: We're trying, man. You know, when people are like, I can't look and see and touch and feel and taste and drink some progress. I do know what's out there 'cause I'm so exposed to all this through all of [00:32:00] this. But I understand it and if we can do some way to facilitate that so people can go, oh, well my town, we could do that. Or what are the examples of this in my town? Or what's transferrable to my town? Least we can do. I really appreciate your time today. That's it. Thank you.

Laurie Pohutsky: Thank you.

Quinn: Really appreciate it.

I got Denzel McCampbell on the phone. Denzel, tell us a little bit about where you're running and what office you're running for.

Denzel McCampbell: Absolutely, and thanks for having me on Quinn and good to be here with you. Again, my name is Denzel McCampbell. I'm a candidate for Detroit City Council here in District seven. And born and raised in the city of Detroit. Been on the east side. So for folks who aren't familiar, you know how some areas may be divided up by quadrants. And here in the city of Detroit, we're divided up by the east and west side. So now living in district seven on the west side for the past 11 years, I'm a community organizer. Someone who's been involved in working on the [00:33:00] ground together with community around issues such as voting rights, environmental justice, equitable development.

Making sure that corporations when they get money and tax subsidies to build things here in the city of Detroit that they're actually giving back to the community. And it's not just a blank slate. I've worked on our city's charter, which is our governing documents to push for a Detroit Bill of Rights that actually center folks needs.

And I'm just running for city council to make sure that we are paying attention and delivering for our neighborhoods here in district seven. We have a lot of children and a lot of seniors and marginalized groups that we really have to put at the forefront and deliver for. So again, it's good to be here with you.

Quinn: Man thank you for being here, for running, for fighting for your hometown. Most important question of the day is gonna be, your website said you have a dog? Tell me about your dog.

Denzel McCampbell: Yes, absolutely. So I have a 11-year-old Yorkie named Minnie. And she actually runs this household. And the story behind Minnie is that back in 2014, I [00:34:00] wanted a dog and my mom then took Minnie from me 'cause she wanted a dog and that became her best friend. But you know, unfortunately my mom passed away in 2020 so folks were like, oh, well what’re you gonna do with, Minnie? I said, well, of course I'm gonna take Minnie. So she's been my sidekick ever since. She is a trip for sure.

Quinn: That's awesome, man. The dog definitely runs the house for sure. I've had my line of 'em, and they do, I got my wife who I answer to, and my kids who don't answer to either of us. And then my dog, who kind of does what she wants, if there's bread on the counter, she's like, I've been fed. I'm good. I've got it.

Denzel McCampbell: Don’t worry about me, I’m good.

Quinn: I'm covered. No. You don't need to feed me the dry kibble shit. She's like, I ate the cinnamon rolls. That's amazing. Well, I want to talk about how Minnie has been endorsed by Run for Something twice. In 2021 and now, tell me a little bit how you got hooked up with those folks at first.

Denzel McCampbell: I came across Run for Something when I ran for Detroit City Clerk. And this is a [00:35:00] role that is in charge of our election administration. Again, I got my start organizing around expanding access to the ballot box. So that was something that continues to be dear to my heart.

And came across, Run for Something and really love their mission around lifting up folks who are first time looking to run and their name Run for Something and whether it is at the city council level, the municipal level you know, state rep, what have you, and really breaking down these barriers to running for office, right?

Because so often folks may feel like, oh, you know, I have to be involved in this, or I have to have this amount of money or have these connections. I got connected with Run for Something to really break down and get rid of those barriers. And they were very helpful in 2021 and I'm fortunate to now be endorsed again by Run for Something here in 2025.

And they continue to be helpful. And not just for me, but folks across the state of Michigan, across the country and really saying, you know, we need more folks. We need new voices, [00:36:00] we need fresh leadership in these roles to really change the outcome for folks and deliver on people's needs. So I really appreciate them.

Quinn: I love that. So I'm sure you don't have to explain to your constituents what the city council is and you know what your powers and your duties and responsibilities might be. But take me back to, because there's such a focus from us and Run for Something and a lot of other groups about, we have to fight for every office from like school board on up, sheriff, like you said, city clerk, this and this. How often when you started to run for city clerk did you have to talk to people and they'd be like, what does city clerk, like maybe you've heard of it, but what do you do? Because that is such a problem in local elections and they're kind of different in every town, sometimes in every city. Tell me about that. 'cause it sounds by the way you explained it, that you've had to do that many times before.

Denzel McCampbell: I had to do a lot right when I was running. And that's a great question. I think it also lends to the civic education, right? That we have to have with every level. Right? And so [00:37:00]it came across a lot. And like I said, with the city clerk, it is one of those roles that you don't know about until you really hear about, right?

I'm going to vote. I will see you know, the folks who are working the polls, polling locations. But you probably are not gonna see the city clerk, but you'll see their impact and what they're running. The city clerk is also our record keeper and the holder of our seal. So as folks are interacting with City Council they actually keep the agendas and things.

And that's the same in the city council as well. I would say that we have had to talk to folks about the power. That's why I also bring up my role in the charter revision commission because a lot of folks don't know, but also I would say a lot of folks that get into these roles don't know the extent of their power as well, so the need to be able to break down that at the doors and on the phones. When I ran for city clerk and I'm continuing to push for what I call a Civic Education Corps that actually has mostly young people, but folks of all ages in the community partnering with block clubs [00:38:00] and neighborhood associations that we're going door to door meeting people where they are to talk about the issues that are impacting them and how it connects to each level of government and each office.

Right. Here in Detroit, we have a strong mayor system. So our mayor runs our departments. The mayor has a cabinet and those are the folks that you will mostly call if you have an issue with like trash pickup up, if you have an issue with taxes and such. But our city council is the legislative branch and we have investitory powers. We've approved the budget but we also, we have that oversight as well on what the mayor does. So I've had to explain a lot when I ran for clerk. I had to explain a lot about that. But also in the city council race, folks are familiar with city council, but it's also a conversation about here's what we can and what more we can do as well.

Quinn: Sure. Yeah, no, absolutely, man. And you know, it's different everywhere I am. I say all the time on the show, I'm downtown Colonial Williamsburg right now, which is where I was born and raised, left for a thousand years, gone back. But we've got the proper [00:39:00] city of Colonial Williamsburg, which just Williamsburg itself has not, the boundaries haven't grown in 400 years and a whole county has grown up around it. Little like when I was in Los Angeles, there's Hollywood and then there's West Hollywood, which is much bigger and surrounds the whole thing. And then there's all the rest of it. So we've got a city council and a mayor who's elected from the city council.

So the mayor's not quite as powerful as in Detroit. But we've also got a board of supervisors from the county and like how those work with each other in the school system, which is a hybrid school system. Like it's complicated. So I understand why people are like, I don't really know how this works. And they hear about people arguing over budgets and you're like okay. It's complicated and man I'm so with you and invested on the civics education front, and there's some fundamentals that are transferable, which I'm really interested in for everything we do from education to policy. But again, then there's those little intricacies, man that really matter and roles like clerk, where you're like, this is what makes the machine work.

Keeping the records and keeping the seal. Especially these days, right? You are the single source of the truth for a lot of this [00:40:00] stuff.

Denzel McCampbell: And I appreciate you having this conversation and asking those questions because also, you know, as we see how the media landscape has changed right. Especially as local newsrooms are getting smaller. We in the city of Detroit have, you know, maybe 10. And we have some phenomenal folks on the ground that are still covering local aspect.

But a lot of that has had to come from, you know, nonprofits that really stand in that space. But as we're thinking about accurate minutes for city council, being able to see how your city council member has voted on this issue or this contract or this budget that brings into how more important like someone like a clerk would be. So absolutely. Yeah.

Quinn: So I wanna talk a little bit today about water. It is one of my, you know, pet peeve doesn't do it justice. It's like clean air again, being in LA or whatever. It should be pretty fundamental and not something that is up for disagreement, but it's complicated. It's obviously clean, accessible, affordable water is actually a million different things.

So [00:41:00] you mentioned 2014 and many entering life. That's when Detroit's water issues were sort of front and center for the world for a minute. So, you don't have to explain why. 'cause it, I think it inherently makes sense why that would be a platform of yours. Because between the water shutoffs and the crazy rain you guys had, infrastructure issues that a lot of cities face and things like that.

Tell me specifically though, because again, this is the feedback we've gotten, what are you specifically fighting to make like measurable progress on it? What does that look like for folks?

Denzel McCampbell: And you are so right, how it touches so many aspects. Right? I would tell you just a little bit about the background as you're talking about water shutoffs, well, there's one story, a family, an older couple that had to melt snow really to have water, to flush a toilet.

Right. Like in the richest country in the world, right? And we know that water is life, that folks need it to live. And what came out of that was a push [00:42:00] for one, a water affordability plan, that says that no matter who you are, no matter how much money you make, you will have access to water. And we will actually allow you to pay what you can into the system so we can keep water flowing.

And the pushback against the widespread shutoffs that folks who are experiencing, and for folks who may be watching or listening, that may seem like a no brainer. There are places that have done this in Philadelphia and other places across the country that have this. And just on the basis as we think about what government is, right, this collective of folks that have put in resources to deliver on the basic needs, that's how I view government, right?

To make sure that folks have their basic needs covered. You know, folks on the ground, advocates, organizers have long pushed for a true water affordability plan that actually, and pushing back on disinformation. You know, opponents will say, oh, well folks need to pay their fair share, Quinn, if you make $0 or if you are living in [00:43:00] deep poverty and you don't have money to pay for water, what are we then telling folks, right? That you don't deserve to live basically.

Quinn: Yeah. When we really boil it down, like the note behind the note is what you're saying is, we're fine with the way this goes.

Denzel McCampbell: Yes. And also ignoring the fact that when we actually go to folks and say, pay what you can, it actually gets more money into the system because then folks are not looking at a high water bill to say, I can't tackle that because I have to put food on the table. Right. I can't tackle that. 'cause now I have to pay my utility bill is also outrageous because we have a private monopoly here in Michigan that continues to increase rates. So really thinking about how all these issues connected. So on the water aspect of getting folks water is really pushing on the local level for water affordability plan across the city. An income-based water affordability plan, something that also State Senator, Stephanie Chang and advocates have pushed at, on the [00:44:00] state level to have a statewide water affordability plan that I was involved with on the advocacy side to help push and just to bring the race into it, my opponent actually held up, it was at the very moment in a democratic trifecta at the end of 2024 that we were very close to passing this legislation, and my opponent walked out. And ended the session so we could not get that legislation passed. So that's one tangible thing that I'll push for at the local level.

Quinn: Your current opponent?

Denzel McCampbell: Yes. So that's one thing. and then you talk about the infrastructure side. You know, it's so funny that we use 100 year floods, you know, to describe these big floods. And in Detroit we probably have had five or six 100 year floods in the last decade. So they're now, they're historic two year floods at this point. But in 2021, in my neighborhood, I had two floods within one month of each other. This was after I moved into my [00:45:00] home, you know, as you're moving in, you're trying to figure out where are things gonna go. I mentioned my mom passed away. A lot of the sentimental things were in my basement as I'm figuring out where to put things and my basement flooded. And you know, that happened to me and it happened to many of my neighbors. Many folks had, you know, people had finished basements where they have sitting areas. And for the folks who may not, I know some areas don't have basements, but here in Detroit many folks use their basement as an additional room, additional living spaces, additional quarters, and just devastated folks across the board with floods.

So there has been some work to go on with infrastructure upgrades, but for me, as I'm looking at, is that we have to make sure that we're continuing to push for climate resilient infrastructure. Infrastructure that delivers clean water to folks that we're replacing, continue on a rapid pace to replace our lead lines here in the city of Detroit and delivering water.

And also to take bold climate action against what we know will increase [00:46:00] these floods and the frequency of devastating weather. Making sure that the city of Detroit is accelerating this pace to be a carbon neutral city that we're investing in, not only here in District seven on the west side, but on the east side where there has been flooding on the canals because the city of Detroit sits on the Detroit river that folks experience flooding all the time. So really coming together with my colleagues to have a citywide plan to build climate resilient infrastructure, to deliver clean water and to make sure that we are playing our part in not advancing the climate emergency that we're in.

Quinn: I appreciate that so much, man. And your wide ranging and at the same time, deep understanding perspective of both the intimate problems faced by yourself and people in District seven and the west side and the east side in Detroit and everywhere. And that we have to do, and you guys have to do and so many places have to do two things at once, right?

We have to, as they say, [00:47:00] adapt and mitigate and part of that adaptation is not being afraid to say out loud where we are and the known knowns as we say, which is that you're gonna flood every two years. That's table stakes now. You can call it whatever the hell you want, but we're gonna flood every two years.

Right. Is it disingenuous to say hundred year flood still everywhere? Yes, of course, gonna flood every two years. Great. That's a start. We've been, I mean, I think you tried to start replacing the lead pipes in like 2018, right? Something like that. And so many places are facing that, but obviously a huge issue in Michigan, that's a known, that work is ongoing, going from lead pipes that get overwhelmed and then plants that get overwhelmed and you got boil notices, right? Which right up the street here in Richmond had enormous problems the past year with that. Two, climate resilient infrastructure, like it's a leap. But you have to always come back to these people and say, I have been affected by this. I want to make sure that the pipes are [00:48:00] not led and that they're clean and they're not gonna hurt your children's learning capacity. And that you're gonna have plants that don't require a boil advisory, which like how do you boil when you can't pay your utility bill, right? How do you melt snow when you can't pay your utility?

Like we have to piece by piece, get to these things. So I have such admiration for the specific ways you are fighting for this. Because again, that's what, when people say to us, I can't touch and feel this change, that is what will do it right.

Denzel McCampbell: Absolutely. And you know, I know you have folks watching and listening from all over. And I know many municipalities are facing this, right? And I get this question often because what we see that's going on the federal level and the cutting of funds in these programs that a lot of municipalities depend on.

I tell folks that we cannot let up on the advocacy, the pushing of our folks on the federal level because it is going to take large investments. [00:49:00] And it's unfortunate that in this last, not even a year. Wow. Not even a year that we've seen many of those advancements and funding either frozen or cut.

Right. And for me hoping to sit on the Detroit City Council is that I want to make sure that my colleagues, the incoming mayoral administration, our state legislators, our congressional delegation, that we are locked in lockstep to say we have to do all that we can to bring these resources back down to the municipal level because again this is impacting folks day in and day out and yeah, it is water and if we can't solve this, we are in deep trouble.

Quinn: Yeah. Yeah, that's a very professional way of putting it, so thank you. So you talked about we can't stop the advocacy. Okay. As you're trying to move into official capacity here on the city council who are and will remain your advocacy allies pushing for clean, accessible, affordable water in the Detroit area.[00:50:00]

Denzel McCampbell: Yep. So there are organizations such as the People's Water Board, We the People of Detroit. And you know, there are organizations like Hydrate Detroit. We affectionately call the folks that have been working on these issues for decades. Our water warriors here in Detroit. And it's like I tell folks that the solutions to our problems are in our neighborhoods, right?

And these are folks that have been, you know, delivering water to folks when they had water shutoffs that when the Flint water crisis happened, dropped everything and went to Flint to help ensure that families had water. These are the folks that I take direction from because these are the mothers of the communities that have been doing this work all the time this entire time that not only is doing the emergency response, but also developing policy to say, let's triage where folks are right now and let's have long lasting change so we don't have to continue to do this.

Those are the folks that I will remain in [00:51:00] partnership and advocacy space with. You know, there are folks, as I mentioned, on all levels of government, you know, Councilwoman Gabriella Santiago Romero has been one to talk about environmental justice. Councilwoman Letitia Johnson in Detroit as well in dealing with infrastructure on the east side.

State Senator Stephanie Chang, as I mentioned, has been leading the fight around water affordability on the state level. Congresswoman Rashida Talib, who I've had the opportunity to work with and be on her staff, has pushed on the federal level for more money around water infrastructure and water affordability, and even during COVID pushed for there to be a moratorium on water shutoffs.

Right? And those are folks in the partnerships in the different levels of government that I really will work with to make sure that we have this really strong front in approaching this all in everywhere that we can.

Quinn: I love that man. I'm so glad for all your decades of water warriors and again, it's not for a lot of reasons something we can pause on or stop at some point where, you [00:52:00] know, we work with so many nonprofits and advocacy folks who would love to put themselves outta business, right? Like kids cancer or some shit.

They're like, I don't want to do this job. No one should have to do this job. Let's make it not stop, but someone has to do it until we can do it right. Until you're ready to handle these floods that are gonna come, until you're ready to get rid of these lead pipes, until you're ready to do all this.

And make sure that here's the deal. Water can't be shut off. Let's just start there. Let's make it a fundamental human right. So understanding that is a pretty black or white, like measurable outcome. What have you found so far? What are you working on that you feel is transferrable to more cities?

'cause again, like Michigan is very deeply dealing with this, obviously and has been the focus of national and international coverage, but what else is transferable on the district and local level? You feel like other cities and towns and municipalities could catch up on that?

Denzel McCampbell: I think it is, ' cause I know that the answer will look different from different places. I think it is that coalition building that is [00:53:00] transferable. And what I mean by that is we've constantly had spaces where nonprofits, advocacy organizations have been at the table with researchers, with folks that can dive deep into the data.

Folks that can look at other cities and policy makers to say, here is the complete package. And also during the organizing in the neighborhoods, I think that is the most transferrable. Is to not lose sight of that organizing space and that complete package of bringing everyone to the table to coalition build in that way.

The reason I'm bearing that up is 'cause we know that we're gonna confront folks who are against this movement and will come with disinformation and try to bring in things that, oh, well if we do this, we're gonna just be paying water bills. No, it doesn't work like that. There are other places that have done this, this is how it's gonna go.

They've actually got more money. I would say that's the most transferable thing that I can offer is that coalition building space that we can confront at every space. Whether it's research, policymaking, [00:54:00] advocacy on the ground, conversations that we're building up a true coalition there.

Quinn: I love that man. I have two remaining important questions. One, I've been asking guests for years, and it's fairly standard, which is what book is working for you these days? It could be water related or civic data, or it could be a coloring book or about dragons. What do you recommend? We got a whole list on Bookshop that people love.

Denzel McCampbell: I'm going to because I'm telling you my brain at this point is mush, but there is a book that I really, especially in like thinking about the City of Detroit, and I think it's this historical context that, a lot of people will look at where we have come from in Detroit and this breakdown of really the, I would say this corporatization and this view of even in that conversation around water of oh, people just won't pay into it.

But Whose Detroit? By Heather Ann Thompson is a great book that [00:55:00] folks if you're gonna get the audio book or read it, we'll look into it and it really dives deep into the labor movement, politics in Detroit and how race comes up in Detroit as well because folks may not know Metro Detroit has a region that is deeply segregated. And how we see politics come up in that is something that I think people really need to take from. So, Whose Detroit? by Heather Ann Thompson is one that I would recommend.

Quinn: Awesome. We'll find it. And last one. What's a playlist you've been rocking lately?

Denzel McCampbell: Okay. I love house music. There's the origins of house music in Detroit, but also there's this playlist on Apple that is like Afro house music. Mixture of Afrobeats and house music. So definitely recommend that. And also because I've been trying to do, you know, some grounding and meditation before I go into a day of campaigning, surprisingly, Ariana Grande has a breathing playlist on as and I love it 'cause Ariana [00:56:00] Grande is one of my favorite artists, so yeah.

Quinn: Can I tell you some crazy shit? My wife wrote the Wicked movies.

Denzel McCampbell: Really?

Quinn: Ariana has been like, my kids are like, oh, well, she's our hero. And I'm like, yes, correct. She is. You're welcome. But that's awesome. I'll have to find her breathing list. That's awesome. Rock and roll, man. Listen Denzel, I can't thank you enough, man for what you're doing and taking your time and sharing all that with us.

I hope you win and crush this guy who walked out of the meeting. Just what a coward. Put that on your ad. I really appreciate it. Let us know anything we can ever help with, man.

Denzel McCampbell: Absolutely and happy to keep you updated on this water fight as well. I appreciate you having me on for sure.

Quinn: Yeah, for sure. Oh, real quick, I'm an idiot gimme your campaign details.

Denzel McCampbell: Oh, I was gonna mention that, but Denzel McCampbell, again, candidate for Detroit City Council in District seven. Folks can go to www dot Denzel for Detroit, it is all spelled out, dot com. And also on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter as well.

Quinn: Okay. Rock and roll. We'll do that. We'll put it all in the show notes [00:57:00], Denzel. Thanks so much, man.

That's it for this week, and I hope you loved these conversations and people as much as I do. Huge, huge, huge thanks to our partners at Run For Something, for all of their hard work every day, but also to bring these conversations to life. As always, this conversation was produced and edited by Willow Beck.

Reminder, you can find candidates who are endorsed by Run for Something and other awesome organizations we trust at What Can I Do dot Earth. If you or someone you love is under 40 and wants to run for something at the state or local level but doesn't know what's available, head on over to run for what dot net.

And if you wanna know more about our work, read our newsletters and essays, check out our other podcasts, or even get some of our awesome t-shirts, hoodies, stickers, or coffee mugs. Head to important not important dot com. Thanks for listening and thanks for giving a shit.